When to Fold ’Em?
Lots of people have asked me this over the past year. “If my partner is moving away, is leaving me, when should I give up? How do I make that decision?” I did write one article on how to get ‘em to make a decision about joining you in a relationship. This article is based on the same principle involving a person who maybe acting passively at a time when you want some decision. And remember this is all based on your continued wish to reconnect.
The decision you want is a) that your partner decides to come back toward you or b) that you reasonably get to stop waiting for them.
Here is the setup. They have moved out, either physically or emotionally or both. Their actions have led you to understand that the previous relationship you had with them somehow “sucked” – enough for them to leave. So now you don’t want the old relationship back, but do want to make a new and better relationship with them. You have read my article on What to do when he/she leaves and are trying to follow the four steps.
So the question is, “How long do you wait?” The current wisdom out on the internet seems to be to not contact them at all. I do not think that a wise course. No contact may make them become aware of their “loneliness,” but also may communicate that you don’t care – that you want them to go away.
So here is my suggestion. Modify this as you chose. In its pure form it takes 5 months.
- Establish a contact channel: email, or cards are ideal. It should be cheap and easily permit the sending of a very limited amount of information. I find text messaging is not very suited to this, nor is voice mail, but you choose. You want them to receive your contact and have perfect freedom about what they do with it: read it, trash it, etc.
- Plan a message that you are going to send. You may have to send as many as 10, so make this simple. The message should contain a “greeting,” an optional bit of news, a clue to your work on yourself, a gentle invitation for more contact.
- The greeting can be nothing more complex than “Hi,” or “Dear Mike,” etc. Keep this light.
- Optional newsy bit is just something like “It’s raining hard,” “The lilacs are out,” “Broke my leg the other day. Doing ok, tho.” Don’t mention anything awful that they might feel obliged to fix. Don’t ever say, “I’m miserable without you,” or the like.
- The clue to your work on yourself is part of my instruction to “3: Work on yourself visibly.” This should be different in each note, and I think these should be pretty abstract. You want your partner to be curious for more. Some examples are, “Seeing my counselor weekly and I am sure learning a lot,” “Wow am I learning about how pushy I used to be.” “Boy, I am getting it that I have been asleep for years.” Etc. Anything you are learning that might involve some subject of their past “complaints” might be good. An example could be that if they complained about your temper, you say, “I am working really hard on getting rid of my anger. I realized it’s been a problem to me for years.”
- Lastly you include a gentle invitation (not a push) to more contact. “Love to hear from you any time you feel like it,” “It’d be fun to hear your voice.” “If you ever feel like contacting me, feel free.” (I strongly suggest you don’t ask questions. None, if you can. Just gentle invitations.)
- Then sign it, bluntly or not at all. “Dave,” “Yours,” etc. Do not say, “Your most obedient and humble servant, begging for your orders, please, please.”
- Send one message only, once a week for one month. (4 messages) Send one message, once every other week for two months. (4 messages) Send one message, once a month for two months. (2 messages) STOP.
That’s it.
If at any time he/she re-contacts you, follow my rule #4 and respond minimally. Oh, if their contact is neutral or simply newsy, read it and ignore it. The contact you are looking for is some request to connect to you coming from them. Example: if they say, “Life is crazy here,” you might feel an impulse to write back something like, “What’s going on?” Don’t do it! It’s a trap. If they say, “Tell me more about what you are learning,” that’s a move to reconnect. Respond minimally to that. Wait for them to be explicit.
Do not be surprised too much if he/she contacts you after the five months of this process. Your partner is leaving that period with a memory of your wanting them, but not pushing. That, I think, is the best you can do.
Good luck.
Hi Al
I hope I am not overloading but a quick question.
In your experience is there a way within the brief weekly (soon to be two weekly) message to show my partner that I am keen to,listen, mindful of reading for those a little on from what to do when she leaves?
Would it be silly for example to close with something more specific than a general gentle invitation
‘It would be great to hear your thoughts on…… so and so….. if you ever felt like it’ would that work or is that a bit pushy?
Thanks as always
David
Well, David, if you are moving to messages once every two weeks, then I guess she ain’t responding at all so far. In that case you can write all you want to her, cuz I imagine she’s dropping them in the wastebasket. No harm. 🙂
More seriously I think you have the cart before the horse. I wouldn’t worry about content of your messages until you’ve established that she wants to read or listen. That comes first. Content is secondary. That’s why I recommend so few sentences (not none) until she turns around a bit.
Hi Al
Confused of the UK here. I think I must be missing something.
If I move forward on the basis of thinking she is binning the messages then being available minimally or not, and as you suggest content, and even working on myself visibly become moot?
So I think predicated on the absence of any contact/response that would establish that she does not want to read or listen? Or just that she does not want to respond?
Does your comment mean that you think that a response of some kind would be forthcoming within 3 (4 this week) e-mails. I think I am struggling to see the point of 5 month communication and few not none in terms of sentences if she throws tthem in the bin
Thank you as ever
Thanks
Hi AL
Trying to space out my thinking a little.
I think I understand that my priority is to look at the things I was/am doing that pushed her away, cos until I get them right I won’t aspire to vintage love whether with her on anyone else?
That is what I work on daily but at the same time I guess it would be erroneous not to see that in part I pour some element of my enthusiasm into that process as I hope to evolve and resolve and “be” rather than “say” if opportunity arises to re-connect.
I hope you will correct me but I feel that part of the underlying advice is to move on whilst working on those failings. If that is true (or indeed if I am reading it wrong) can you advise me on what might seem to you best about the folowing:
I have left with me when we split a fair amount of my ex partners furniture and three boxes of her personal possessions. This plus the furniture we bought whilst living together is all in storage as I now rent a furnished apartment. Equally my ex has more than half of my clothes and a few personal items.
When things first got tough I think perhaps somewhat naively I was happy to retain that status quo as I thought it kept me in her mind, and left an excuse for her to contact me. And I held on to the fact she did not choose to return my clothes nor seek her stuff back………..Classic clinger I think you are saying!
Ought I to offer this back to her; I would not want to pay to store it indefintely and it is it seems another bar to moving on
Thank you again
Dear David, You do seem to have grasped my thoughts.
But to your question. On problem is that the Clinger is often the more active and maybe even more “physically” competent of the two. Since in being together stuff is accumulated and moved together, in separating that stuff needs attention. These two things often lead to an interesting situation. The leaving partner often leans on the physical competence of the being-left-behind partner. This person, who doesn’t want the relationship to end, acts out their competence by assisting in the very process they don’t desire – the separation. Seems foolish.
My suggestion is that you focus on boundaries and responsibility. If the stuff is hers, let her arrange to get it. Don’t make it easy. Time is on your side, if you are working on yourself. Another example is that if she wants a divorce, let her find her lawyer. Drag your feet a bit. Don’t do it for her. You may have to put her stuff in some storage, put her name on it, and leave it there for her to pay for.
It may sound silly, but I think you want to show that “being together” has some benefits while being separate has some expenses.
The point of my article was to give people some structure to follow in this situation. Maybe the other has decided to move on. Maybe they are “binning” all your messages. Maybe they are just “making up their mind.”
Waiting forever seemed foolish. Pushing for contact seems foolish. Waiting for a “while” and working on yourself seemed the wise path. This article gave focus to “how long is a while?” and “what is minimal contact?” This just my way of responding to common questions.
Hi Al
Thank you for both of your replies
(I am also reading your trail with Brendan and it is a really enlightening parallel, both better and worse; I think it invites clarity to my reflection and oddly breeds a wish for the welfare of another human being)
Your comments about her stuff are first class and opened my eyes to a perspective I had not even considered…..wow, I am the archetype of ‘I must be seen to be efficient in my resolution of her problems’ no longer
My ex was a clinger until I recall I as part of the power struggle began to use the fact that I ‘paid all the bills’ on our shared home as’ leverage’ during arguments.
At the time I felt that I was being taken advantage of when with hindsight I perhaps should have thought (not felt) that my ex probably was somewhat insecure with the arrangement, as it maybe lost her some perception of a hard won independence after her won divorce; and so I think I forced her into an avoider frame, albeit I think I could see it in her history.
I read the Mr/Mrs Right piece and your paper about Imago and I am pretty certain that my ex partner and I are ‘a match’, and I believe that match goes both ways as well (though acknowledge that may well not be her take).
I work on myself and genuinely enjoy learning and practicing (and even arguing internally) your various works; and I think we definitely fulfilled the two criteria that allow the possibility of vintage love, in that we were very much in romantic love, probably for as much as the first couple of years, and the power struggle definitely followed for two more years
The last six months I think to coin a borrowed phrase was ‘the salad stage’……….everything tossed up in the air, me chasing and pushing and doing everything I promised myself on a daily basis that I wouldn’t………no boundaries I think you are perhaps mumbling about now!
I guess I know also that there is a ‘reasonable time’ and so I seek to ‘move on’ whilst ‘leaving the milk and cookies on the stairs’ so to speak. The difficulty I have most of all though I think is that my actions from day to day are following that lead (with no small amount of guidance from this site), but my mind, especially in the quiet moments, is like a dog gnawing at an old bone; (over thinking) and won’t leave it alone.
Do you have any practical suggestions for us clingers on how to separate from the draining thoughts and emotions which frankly I would like to set aside?? I can do all the physical stuff, keep myself busy, try and meet people, practice all the good stuff I learn, but those thoughts ping in at the speed of light and they are a pain in the ***ss
Lastly (sorry it’s a long one) my ex and I worked very closely together for 5 years whilst a couple, and knew all the same people at what is a fairly small business; a few days ago a lady colleague of ours who left the firm at the turn of the year showed up at the office VERY unexpectedly to see how every one was, she and my ex were quite close at work, indeed my ex was a kind of ‘mother figure’ in the workplace.
My colleagues here suggested the visit didn’t ‘add up’ she has never been in, called or e-mailed since the day she left; and though I did not allow myself to be drawn on this I wondered do you have previous experience of avoiders sending in a ‘proxy’ or ‘advanced guard’??
I guess either way matters not as I believe from what you said before that I would need to continue being deaf, but I even felt at the time there was an essence of ‘checking out the territory’ and wondered if this ‘rings true’??
I don’t intend to wait on my ex forever, learning, practicing and absorbing the world around me life is not so bad, I prefer a half full glass to a half empty one and so I mostly enjoy what I have and if she steps back into my space I hope to be a better man for the experience I am now having, perhaps with a tool or two more with Al Turtle embossed on the handle, to help me along the way to vintage love.
Again thank you for taking the time
Hi Al
I have read alot of your articles today, and I think perhaps it is good to pace myself a little or I find loads goes in and then much bleeds out like sand from a leaky bucket. I think some parts of my mind are deliberately resistant to the ‘rightness’ of many essays.
Is this sort of ‘overloaded’ sensation something previously reported?
Is it ok to ask if the process of stopping all pushing and evolving the three other elements is this partly based on experiences with the avoiders also, the ones who got frightened and left?
Is your summary of the best actions based on their side/description of the process of splitting also?
I now look back on other previous relationships I was involved in where I pulled away and feel a sense of callousness in my own actions I did not see clearly at the time
Thank you
David
Yeah. That “overloaded” is a pretty common report. Seems each person has to learn how, and how fast, and what techniques, they need in learning anything. I can only learn so fast and get completely overloaded when I try to go faster. I remember a great book (“Voyage of the Space Beagle”) in which the hero was the only one on a scientist filled spaceship, who knew how to learn. Eventually became leader of the expedition. Good memory.
So slow down, take breaks, and learn your mortality. At least that’s a suggestion.
2nd question. The four step process seems to work with everyone. Sometimes that one who is left behind is originally a clinger and sometimes an avoider. At the moment of being left they tend to have either always been a clinger (more like you and me) or they have recently switched to clinger. The purpose of the process was to provide guidelines for the left-behind-one that will lead to a dialogical solution (a Win for both).
The person who moves away is sometimes more or less panicked or hopeless or resigned. Often they express their troubles as being just the “bad” behavior of the other person. Of course they will probably and eventually find that both are equally responsible – but maybe not. Maybe they will “blame” forever. Sad.
Hi Al
I have just read the ‘short temper’ tale, it is a thought provoking story.
In my own life I think I have seen the type of behavior or ‘investment’ you describe in a kind of hierarchical way.
I notice that I have been aware for a long time that big bully seems to control smaller bullies, who in turn express their lessons on the next most vulnerable in the chain.
I think I have regularly tried to rally against this but can see how easy it is to be coerced by the desire to stay in the group circle that appears at least governed by the very same bullies, I am certain I have been.
You mentioned at the end being brave enough to express your truth and I really like that. I think I am awake to this now, If I read it right Jack invited your truth, with the wisdom of hindsight you volunteered your truth to the younger man, was it welcomed?
I ask because I wonder if volunteering truths is often not a popular behavior.
Perhaps someone could invent ‘you get to choose day’ to teach people how not to be a bully so that the wishes of a group/family/work circle would be guided by the whims of someone other than the usual boss(bully)master every so often.
On say the youngest child’s ‘you get to choose day’ taking a family scenario, one might perhaps eat fish fingers and jelly, and go to the swings and slides, and watch kids TV, and not tidy anything up; taking what the story says I could see a lesson in that for all participants, and the more such a thing gained momentum the harder it would be for the self interested bully to avoid involvement.
At the moment I look around and I think to a greater extent it’s either learn how to be a bully, or how to get by causing least impact from the bullying behavior around you, it seems true in family and business.
Is this a topic you evolve elsewhere?
Thanks
David
Yup. Holy Mackeral have I evolved this! Lots and lots. This topic started with the Master Slave paper and a series of short notes on MasterTalk. Then it expanded to the Power of Passivity paper with its follow-on about Passivity in the Foundations. That was a lot. I taught all of that and even had a Powerpoint on it all. There even appeared a small chart called
which I haven’t yet written the paper for. For many years I thought of developing a game based on this to help people learn to recognize attacks “on democracy” and to pratice the appropriate response. Haven’t done it yet.
Hi Al. As I begin to recognise my failings, the things I think I did that pushed her away I have a strong urge to apologise, or at least acknowledge and so show both the work on myself and improvement in perhaps understanding and appreciation of her.
Is there a way I might achieve this, balancing respect for her wishes not to have me in her life right now, and at the same time attempting to show her lizard, and my own, a calmer and more respectful David?
Thank you
That urge to apologize is great and important. But I am always cautious of any urge from a “clinger” to talk at an avoider.
First thing first is to get the avoider into wanting to listen. For that you have to wait and send so little data that they notice you by your absence. But if you send too little data they may think you don’t care. Thus my article on When to Fold ‘Em.
Next thing is to be prepared with your message when that avoiding person does show up. If you go back to the old way to “talking at” them, you’ll just drive them further way – again. So I suggest you say a very little and start listening a lot. Maybe 5% talk and 95% listening. Thus you will see my article on Making Amends. It’s got a fairly structured idea of what to say and then switches into the listening mode at the end.
Sure, the goal of apologizing is to resolve and put into the past some experiences you both have had. But most apologies are about putting the offender’s experiences out and doing nothing about the offendee’s experiences. Better to work on her experiences. Best to get really ready to validate (Pre-Validate) her frustrations with you, when she surfaces.
Thank you Al.
I think I have always been a clinger, as a young child my mother left the family home taking only my younger sister and eventually after a fraught time with my father I spent some years being bought up by my grandmother, which seems in my mind an ok time looking back though I don’t clearly remember too much about those years.
I think I have forgiven my parents, and as a parent hope I truly understand that we do the best that we can.
I am sure the warfare between my mother and father, and the two family camps, as the divorce took place left me detached and feeling abandoned, and perhaps looking to fill that hole ever after.
I read, and re read your article/essay about clingers who need lots of love units, and how to start to source that from elsewhere.
It seems my personal battle is balancing that with the urge to become a hermit, which I think I wrap up in some strange need staying loyal to my ex and the way we lived, I find I don’t want to change patterns and yet I think I understand that is in some ways what I must do?
Are those feelings recognisable to your therapies, and if so is it right to battle consciously againts them and push yourself out there looking for those missing units or is it OK to just accept a degraded lifestyle for a time and be patient with myself?
As an aside I think you have been kind and patient with me, and my thanks are sincere
David
I am going for a run now, I know exercise is good then look forward to ‘making amends’
I love it. People are so complex and simple at the same time. I think that ambivalence between potential hermitage and the desire for Vintage Love is a pretty normal and healthy battle. Too many seem to accept Door #2.
Hi Al
Thank you for your comments,
I am going to treat reading the essays and associated items more like ‘going back to school’ and put some structure in there which I reckon will help me absorb better.
I think I was getting a little carried away, as if the reading itself would provide the energy for resolution.
Would I be understanding better in thinking that what you underscore is that it is putting it into practice that leads to a change in habits and the chance to move toward vintage love? knowing is not ever as good as doing, kind of thing?
Blame (I think not a nice word but it seems to be all around us), I now recognize that there is very much I was responsible for between us.
I hope I can continue to move away from holding my ex ‘accountable for us’, and when those thoughts come I try consciously to replace them with ‘holding me accountable for me’.
I realized reading back through the three messages I have sent weekly that I was not opening with a general bit of news but instead opening with a bit of news about my life, a subtle reminder of us. Is this ok or might it perhaps, as it seems to me with hindsight, be a bit mastertalkie?
Best Wishes
David
I think you have my thougths here, David. Most of the work of relationships is in skills, things one does. I started writing my papers as “explanations of why and what” skills are necessary. Uno. People would say, “Why should I mirror?” “Why should I use a timeout?” I have experienced people who read through my papers and kick themselves cuz they don’t think they’ve learned anything. I often say, I cannot do the practice (skill learning) for them. I can point the way, by showing the skills and sharing the logic I’ve found.
To me, “blame” is a clue to the problems of Master/Slave. Those three essays cover a whole pile of skills.
Hi Al
You have been very concise in your outline plan for ‘gentle and non pushy contact’ deer from the woods still strikes a chord with me. Do you have any results/data that have given you reason to believe in the specifics of weekly/two weekly/monthly and so forth as opposed to other rationales, you mention that you have not felt need to change this approach over some time period so I wonder at what results you may have encountered through your couples therapy. I think I concur with the process and feel that the time I am spending on me and my own evolution can only benefit us both if (when) contact evolves, the idea of no contact/ pursuing actively seems manipulative at best and does not honour either one of us. I have written this as this weeks e-mail (no2) and tried to think actively about the points you raised and the master talk issue. I have also been practicing active listening, and I do need practice based on my efforts thus far…….
Hi again
Well I’m out riding my bike a fair bit on the towpath, before 09.00 and after 19.00 for maximum peace.
Been busy studying how to become a source of inner calm and the river has been a nice place to sit and read and learn about patience and harmony.
Do you remember all of our bike rides? Let you into a secret (It was the mouth watering salad pitas I liked best)
Hope you still get your Landy out for a pedal.
Always be great to hear from you
David
I think maybe that a part of what your saying in terms of piquing curiosity is that less is more? so I question taking out the sentences ‘before 09.00’ and ‘Let you into a secret’ to shorten the process, does either strike more of a chord in your experience?. In an earlier reply you mentioned ‘acting a little deaf’ Do you mean actually ignore first contact if it arrives but is not a direct escalation on their part and just a bit non committal? I ask because I guess any such contact would be difficult not to respond to just because it would appear a remarkable escalation in and of itself.
Thank you
The letter looks fine. One thought is that when you mention working on yourself it might be useful to allude to something about you that you think she cares about. “I sure am working on learning to be a patient guy.” “Seeing a counselor to find out my own parts of our troubles.” You want to share that you ARE working on the stuff that bothered her.
No I have no data or statistics on the timings in my “When to Fold Em” article. The times just seemed right base on my gut. Frequently, when I am not sure of some statistic, I guess, and then watch my guess over years. Bit by bit I become more confident in my guess.
I guess you mean intuition ultimately, that we’ve had for however many million years but tend to push aside in favour of the noisy mind…..well that certainly has been one of my own issues I think. Like many men my ex accused me of not opening up about myself whereas I think I closed up when I recognized that whatever I gave up freely appeared to be used as ammunition in our next confrontation. I am beginning to wonder if that wasn’t also an issue on my part in terms of how I framed or presented the things I said. Al I read a lot previously about mirroring and transference of emotions and even the closedness I refer to here I could apply the ‘mirror’ logic to our previous incarnation together. Am I suggesting too much if I thought that what is happening here as I try to reconnect is that I am trying at a passive ‘lizard calm’ level to allow my ex to mirror my own positive evolution? Also do you think any differently in terms of these minimal contacts if there was someone else on her scene? Intuition suggests that there wasn’t over the early weeks we were apart but I am at a distance so can’t easily know, ‘intuition’ says not.
I’m not sure what you are referring to with the word “intuition.” I also got confused with the sentence “Like many men my ex accused me of not opening up..” Do you think she accused many men? Do you think you didn’t open up? Do you think many men don’t open up?
Do you think the way you write, in a run on paragraph? With no paragraph breaks to help with clarity?
Not sure what you mean by “mirror” here. Is it possible you overthink? My guess is that you do, and that you may have lived in a MasterTalk world.
I guess I am not tracking you very well.
Al just re-read your reply and one other thought. You say allude to something you think she cares about. This is not the same thing as allude to something she said she cared about? Often times I felt when she would say things like ‘you never speak’ or ‘I don’t feel close to you because you don’t share anything’ these were headline statements and masked the true lizard fear/trigger. It seemed to me that she was frightened her own deceptions would lead to a ‘dismantling’ of her carefully crafted self image (we all have one I think) and so the stuff was thrown out to divert attention and oddly the harder I would try to attend to the issue promoted by her the further apart it would push us. So I think her real issue is/was that she wanted me to be alpha male but still to be totally devoted to her, whereas I had become clingy beta male, cringily devoted to her. I was argumentative and defensive and she wanted a ‘bigger man’ that rose above the conflicts and so helped her to achieve the same. This is why I allude to patience and harmony in my bit because I get that without listening the underlying ‘calm’ that is needed not to react in the moment will elude me, so I am shooting for the unspoken message. Does that sound right?
No. It doesn’t sound right at all. Besides, I don’t think “being right” isn’t a useful goal. I suggest you learn to quit that arguing stuff and really learn Empathy and how to come across as respectful rather than trying to be right. I think guessing what she wants is useful, but it’s worth checking out her verbal complaints for clues to what you need to focus on in yourself. And get to work on it.
Besides I think it is much more of interest to start dismantling and replacing your long-built dysfunctional skills than to focus on the ones you think she needs to focus on. http://www.alturtle.com/archives/1098
Good luck.
Hi Al. I am sure you are right. I write without para breaks because I am not overly computer fluid and find myself boxed in by the reply box.
This is a conscious effort
I do overthink I am sure especially about the things that I believe are important. My ex and I, I felt for the longest time, were soul mates at a deep level real best friends and passionate and enthusiastic to live. It went wrong some months ago and I couldn’t seem to slow the slide.
I may have only limited tools and limited understanding but I have been frightened by all that has taken place and struggled with the concept we would lose one another. I truly believe neither one really wants that but I think people do lose one another every day.
I don’t want to argue, and I don’t also want to create a false image, I will think about respect, I had never thought of myself as a disrespectful man until this
Thank you
Thanks for writing in a way that is easier to read. This might be a piece of the “respect” issue. For instance, after practicing Mirroring a lot I found that I got into the habit of thinking a bit about whoever was listening to me and even whether they wanted to listen. I hadn’t learned to act respectful of my readers or listeners. I just assumed their willingness to work to hear or understand me. That old ASSUME sure got me into trouble.
I also used to overthink, dangerously. By that I mean I would communicate or listen 2% and think 98%. Got me into trouble all the time. Now I am much more interested in listening and understanding – probably 70%. My old overthinking habits now just seem to have been a kind of mental masturbation – kinda fun but not worth much in the long run.
During that time you thought the two of you were soulmates, I wonder what she was thinking? and feeling?
I think it might be good to change the image of “losing her” to one of “driving her away.” That image contains lots more for you to do or stop doing about it. “Losing” her sounds so hopeless and passive.
You say you don’t want to argue. But you did it a lot. So I think part of you really does want to argue. My guess is that you were trained into it. Good news is that it takes two to make an arguement and thus just one person can stop all arguing.
I believe you’ve not thought of yourself as a disrespectful man. But how do you come across? That’s the clue. I don’t think it is whether you are or are not. That’s just MasterTalk. If I try to be respectful and come across as disrespectful, then I am cooked. .
Al thank you for the depth and clarity of your response. I want to step away, read a little more slowly and pay attention.
I think I have been like a Tasmanian Devil for about 20 years now!
I did argue alot and also walked away from arguments between us alot, but I never got my head round just stopping, she certainly found a way to stop us arguing I guess which probably suggest much of the answer to ‘I wonder what she was thinking’.
I am also aware that my formative years were filled with parental warfare and so yes I am sure I was well trained in both arguing and master talk (and slave talk as well)
You suggested a day or two back that I go out and try and practice listening…………….that’s the plan, again thankyou
David
Good for you, David. While I’ve written all the theory (Master Talk, Master/Slave, Slave’s version of MasterTalk, the Passive Master’s version of MasterTalk, etc.), I really believe it is the practice of the skills that count. For that you need a partner or series of partners. Only way. But I still believe that learning to quit MasterTalk is really just going back to the way you were before you ran into your caretakers. It’s natural. Good luck.
Hi Al. I was reading your thread above to Brendan and you mention ‘hermits’. Is this something that you think occurs often (I am wondering particularly in middle age I being 50 and my ex 48). Is this something you have written any further on
I have had to work hard already not to reduce what I perceive as my ‘safe zone’ to a world small enough that there is no room for anyone else in it, and though I was at a little distance from her I sort of thought the same thing was happening with my ex partner. It can feel like incredibly hard work to re-engage with people, or meet new people?
Do you have any opinion or have you written anything about people choosing/winding up with partners that represent the unresolved issues from our formative years?
Thank you
David
Couple of good questions and thoughts there.
Hermits. Yeah you’ll see me writing about this in the early part of the paper of Safety where I speak of Reliable Connection. I believe that a Hermit is a person who needs connection with others but who has built up a history of awful/frightening experiences with others, and who has not developed skills of being safe with others (mostly Boundary Skills). The result is they want connection – but not like that again. The other place I write about it is in the newer paper on Living Solo, a very common pattern nowadays.
Hi Al,
I am one of the many who have come to your site via the “what to do when he or she leaves”. I was divorced in 2008 after 13 years of marriage with 4 kids. In october 2011, I met another lady who acceptepted my proposal for marriage which was to be next week in FIJI. About a month afor our engagement all hell broke loose with my ex-wife and kids and business stress also. Essentially i was so caught up in my own stressess that i didn’t give my Lady the tim eshe deserved. This really came to a head when she told me at New Years she was moving out. This was tottaly the right thing for her to do for her own mental health sake.
In response I did everything I shouldn’t in pushing and chasing, until in Feb she said she didn’t want contact. We have had small text message contact approx ebvvery two weeks (birthdays, mothers day etc). Last week i saw her at the gym, and asked if she would like to catch up for coffee before we fly to Fiji on Thursday (i am travelling with my kids, she with her kids on the same flights, different resorts now).
I tried to explain after that i was not trying to push and it was just an invitation. I saw her at the gym again on Sunday, and in that afternoon she sent me this message “if we cross paths in the gym or elsewhere in future, i am fine with an aknowledgement / hello but i don’t want to chat. I’ve moved on in my personal life and feel the happiest i have ever been. I hope you’re happy and well. My intention is not to be rude, but i really don’t want to connect in any way in future”.
I am sure this is a lizard reaction, and i know she makes sense.
I read on Marriage advocated and other stuff oif yours that eventually an avoider will probably want to have some contact. Obviously I want to wait and reconnect, but what to do? (this is my lizard needing predictive info i guess).
I have been doing all the learning i can, reading listening to your podcasts in the car ever day for the past couple of months, seeing a phychologist to deal with my own issues etc.
This patient waiting is hard
Brendan
Yep, Brendan, patience is a bummer. I’ve been working on getting better at it for mebbe 20 years. Had a tough lesson in it today. Wish I’d gotten good at it when I was much younger.
One of the reasons I wrote this article on When to Fold Em is that there are people who become hermits and people who decide to live alone for the rest of their lives. It is possible. And if you want to reconnect with someone who has decided to become a hermit, you’ve got to make a decision someday to call it quits and find someone else. I’m not saying iyour partner is one of these, just it is possible. Waiting is the only way I know to find out. But waiting for years seems silly.
I like your phrase. “ I did everything I shouldn’t in pushing and chasing”. Let me rewrite it a bit more clearly. I did a whole bunch of pushing and chasing, which a the time seemed the right things to do. But now I”ve improved myself and have learned that I shouldn’t do that again. My old phrase “seemed like the right idea at the time!” comes in useful as one learns to do better.
Also I like you using my phrase “predictive information.” Lizard does sure love it. She’s doing things that make sense to her. If your lizard knew what she was up to, it wouldn’t like it, but would have predictive information and could relax.
In the meantime you might want to make some guesses about what behaviors you have, what habits you have, that did drive her away and would drive her away again. Learn some new skills.
Hi Al,
I survived the week in Fiji. The trip from Sydney to Fiji was really hard as the good lady basically ignored me and my kids – (brief acknowledgement that’s all). I am sure that as this was to be our wedding week her lizard was active also. We ended up being in the same transfer vehicle to the resort- which started off quite hard, but before the hour was over I had engaged her two children.
I was able to practice trying to sooth their lizards, and to see them start to come around. In a strange way I felt comfort in knowing that I was giving her space, and reducing her anxiety.
At the airport on the way home yesterday, I had a 5 minute talk with her – it was really positive even her asking me to tell her a little of what I have learned.
My guess is that now I need to continue to give her space, and hopefully she will want more connection.
In the meantime – do you have a paper on how to sooth my own lizard – or is this something I just have to learn by myself over time?
BTW – I really appreciate your teaching and the time you give.
Brendan
Sounds as if you are moving in the right direction.
Application of the principles in the Lizard paper is what works. Any book on stress reduction may be helpful. Remember the Lizard is a bit gullible and blind so that what it wants is Play, Mating, Nurturing and Creative Work. It doesn’t know where this is coming from, so if you do it, it works. Take care of your Lizard’s needs. This was a rich area for development in me. I had let myself become dependent on my first partner for these benefits so when she pulled away I was left “high and dry.” I had to learn to choose to put Play and Nurturing, etc. into my life on my own.
Hi Al,
I have set myself a date of the end of this month to decide to look for another potential partner, if ther is no further contact from my ex. I have ordered the book on stress you talk about “why zebra’s don’t get ulcers”. Am still trying to learn all the skills – I will get there in the end.
Tonight when I was at the gym, my ex walked past. My heart missed a beat again – damn love- but she didn’t acknowledge. In fact I could see that she was still fleeing – lizard feeling unsafe . Because I could see this I stayed away so she would not feel more unsafe.
What can be done to help reduce the active lizard of someone I love, when there isn’t communication?
To be honest I would do what ever work was needed, if there was the opportunity again with her. I’m not a desperado – but also I know that if she feels that she needs to move on in life without me, then I just want the best for her. Also I do not do well being lonely.
I set that dead line at the begging of the month, and for the last two weeks had hope and even confidence that she would begin to turn around a little. But since Sunday have not really felt hopeful, and actually a little down about it all.
Brendan.
Dear Brendan, I don’t do well at all when I am alone. Need people, very much want my wife. Ah well. Lots of thoughts about your posting.
Glad you are learning and seeing things you didn’t see before. When I started working on my relationship skills a big part was in finding out not only how blind I was to what was going on in my partner, but also in finding out how I got that way. Who taught me! Sure you missed how scared her Lizard was, but you also missed how much she felt held back by being with you. Of course had you known these things, you could have done things differently. Well at least you would have had a choice.
Reducing the activity of her lizard. Well there are lots and lots of things to do. Of course you are dealing with her memories of what you have done or neglected to do in the past. She can’t forget those thingies. But they can receed into the background, and she can learn new things that may reduce her lizard’s fear of you. One advantage you have is that “the Lizard” pays little attention to words and focuses on actions, deeds, etc. Sounds as if you do/can see her (gym) and just be aware lots of communication is going on with her lizard at those little moments. Your goals probably are both to stop being a source of threat to her lizard but also become a source of safety. Tis good to focus on that positive stuff: Play, Mating, Nurturing, Creative Work. Maybe don’t push the Mating stuff right now, but that Nurturing stuff goes a long way.
Personally, having met lots of lizards, I think your deadline of a month is much too short. I’d give it maybe five months, but then you are there, on the scene, and will do what you think is best.
Keep a plugging along with that learning stuff and try to make it visible to her.
Wow Al,
I love how you are able to give a big swift kick in the butt to me, but in a nice way.
“Sure you missed how scared her Lizard was, but you also missed how much she felt held back by being with you.”
The second part of this is a new area for me to dig into.
I guess part of thinking about moving on after a month is fear based. Some thing for me to learn to deal with.
I will extend the time, not becuase i want you to make the decision for me, but more i have seen the mess my former wisdon has got me into, and if i am asking for wisdom – then that wisdom is worth a crack.
Brendan
Hi Al,
Getting near to the end of the 5 months. You were right the relationship she entred into didn’t last. I understand whats going on becuase of what i have read in your material but still no breakthrough for me with her – Minimal contact.
Today i was driving out of town for business and listing to you chats with Laura on MP3 (i have literally listened to them continuosly for the last 7 months. It dawn on me today that the micro wedding vow – really does sum up what i have learned this year (and wish i learned earlier).
Actually i just took a punt and sent her a message containing this – showing what i have learned this year. (I think i can’t make things any worse than minimal contact.
Anyway – it draws near time for me to move on I think, and look to date others – really in search of my next imago match. Somehow i need to find a way to move on from her (because i think it would be unfair on future partners). Do you have any advice for this lad downunder?
Brendan
Sorry, Brendan, but this all does happen. Glad you enjoy the tapes with Laura. Remind me of the “Micro Wedding Vow”. I remember posting a serious wedding vow, but darn if I can recall the micro.
One suggestion. Even when scared or hesitant we can often get our legs to move. And the only thing that makes you forget your Imago Match is your next Imago Match. So you might just drag yourself into situations where you are likely to meet the next match. All about finding Ms. Right. Good luck.